Lay it all out!

Posts and comments by Carbon 12

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Yes, for example, in quantum mechanics things happen with a certain probability, reliably that probability. So 60% of the time one outcome happens, 40% the other happens. If you went back in time (also an impossible paradox) and observed the same quantum event, something different would happen. This is fundamentally the difference between prediction and foreknowledge. Prediction is a percentage distribution of probability that allows you to calculate the most LIKELY outcome, but even if you went back in time you still could not know the outcome. A god could have perfect quantum probability prediction, but not be all knowing, without removing the possibility of free will.

Essentially, if the outcome is determined (ie if someone has certain knowledge of the future, it is "set" to that conclusion, thus the future is determined, in this case determined by god) then when you come to make a choice, the choice does not matter. You are already doomed to hell for example before you even make that decision, and god made you in the exact knowledge you would make those choices, so it is completely immoral. I'm not sure how else to explain the difference between knowledge and prediction other than knowledge of the probabilities, not the event itself.

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Prove that something can "exist outside of time" or at least that it even makes sense at all. Also, you do not understand free will at all. Free will is the ability to make a meaningful decision, that will change the future. Understanding is irrelevant. We have the illusion of free will, but all evidence points to it actually being an illusion as far as we can tell anyway, and our brains do operate the same as AI, fundamentally. Our rational "voice" part of the brain really knows little about our decision making, for example with eeg we can tell what decision a person will make before they know they have made it and before they have thought of the reason WHY they chose that.

Also, do you mean god is not present in timespace? or that time and space are different also? Rationally speaking all you said was "god exists in my imagination" as far as I can tell, the one place away from spacetime (abstraction).

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1)There is nothing deterministic about PREDICTIONS. It is about ineffable knowledge. Also you have not proved whether the daughter actually CAN chose anything else. The god CLAIMS we have free will, and thus the choice necessarily is uncertain. If God makes us, with the knowledge of what decisions we will make, at birth we are doomed to commit any sins we will do. does that make sense? In your example the father does NOT know. He BELIEVES that his daughter will pick his favourite, but it is entirely possible to surprise him. God, however cannot be surprised in this way and that is the difference. For example, if you have a statistical probability of an event happening of 99%, you still have no knowledge of the actual future outcome. It is just LIKELY. Also, it does not mean that a god "predetermined" it, it simply means that the universe is fixed and there are no free choices, god or no. It is the same as anyone with actual knowledge of the future, that being possible means that the universe is predetermined. The universe could be either way as far as I am concerned, simply knowledge of the future and free will are mutually incompatible. One or the other.

2) That was simply addressing the argument from design. One religious reasoning for a god is that the universe is so complex therefore it must have had a designer, because complex things cannot arise from simple things. Also, they say that the universe must have had a beginning, just because. I'm guessing you do not believe in a creator god, because if you can believe the universe can arise from "nothing" without a god, there is no need to posit one. If stuff creates itself in a similar way to evolution, there is no need for god interfering, so this argument does not apply to your beliefs.

You do say I was making a claim, and I do not think that is the case. I was stating that the claims of omniscience and morality (free will) are mutually exclusive, which is logically correct based on definitions.

Also, how can you believe that no little girl ever surprised her father and picked a different icecream? Even I have seen that. The father is NOT omnipotent, whereas god would no for sure each time, he is not simply PREDICTING it...

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If he knows what we are going to chose, it is predetermined. He made us knowing every choice we would ever make. free will requires the universe not to be predetermined, making all knowing a paradox and thus impossible.
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But you believe that god MADE you. IT MADE YOU PREDETERMINED TO BE GOOD OR EVIL.
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I do rather think that this thread does demonstrate the various approaches to this question clearly and succinctly.
And re: Omz Homz, I was trying not to be rude, but the definition of free will is that our actions are NOT predetermined. If you have another definition please give it and I can help you. The logical proof is A =/= NotA. I apologise if I was not clear enough before.
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NASA also use mean surface temperature anomalies to "prove" man made climate change based on co2.... Takes its baseline from 1880-1910.... Records differences mainly in urban areas...
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NASA are uber normies. Not much it turns out. Do you how many lives have been lost due to their incompetence? Also, they are the advocates for MSTAs! Most clearly quack science ever put forwards!
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you are mistaking AR plate for this crappy structural grade steel.
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Sep 10, 2017
This is why I have distaste for the religious, always trying to belittle others with their moral pretensions. Keep yourself to yourself, dude. Refute him if you like, or leave alone. Do not try to police areas that are not your own (such as your house).
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Oh yes, praise god your child had an extremely painful condition that caused them to live only for a year, in agony, oh how that child should love god.
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ehhh, that is how "god made us" free from original sin, not eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If you believe that stuff. But certainly I think there is way more to life than a black and white good and evil approach. Life is stimulating enough without good or evil happening to me. If you think everything is good and evil, you have a very wide definition.
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Genetix, they have that one, that is what eternal punishment is meant for.
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Evil is simply things that affect humans in a negative way. Anything else is religious nonsense.
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It is a heinous sin to know what good is, by god's own instructions. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Without evil, and without good, children will be born without original sin.
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Which god? please define it first, it is very important to the likelyhood or even possibility of what you are saying.
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The ones who believe in magic invisible friends get to set the standard of evil, and tell us their friend told them so that makes it better.
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Atheism is the lack in a belief in a diety, NOT knowledge of the lack of existence of a god.
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It is kind of the definition of predeterminism and free will, they are by definition mutually exclusive:
"Predeterminism is the idea that all events are determined in advance. Predeterminism is the philosophy that all events of history, past, present and future, have been already decided or are already known (by God, fate, or some other force), including human actions.
In the case of predeterminism, this chain of events has been pre-established, and human actions cannot interfere with the outcomes of this pre-established chain."
"Free Will: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"
Feel free to ask any more questions, but feel free to explain what you believe these terms to mean if you think differently. But to me, you are asking me to prove A =/= notA.
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Some people believe truly do believe.
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Why would you want raw good anyway? Surely the acts are the important thing, as a mechanism to ofset evil. No other point to good. Lack of evil is far superior to good.
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Good = events to the betterment of humans as a species and individuals
Evil = likewise, but to the detriment
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It cannot be powerful enough to create a thing it could not destroy, so "all powerful" itself is a paradox and a fallacy.
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You must not be religious. Everything in their world view is caused by angels and demons. Good and evil. That is all.
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Necessary evil? No evil is necessary. Lack of evil is better than all the good possible.
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