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This is not the true problem of evil at all, it is a watered down version you can refute

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Sep 7, 2017
CrashCourse posted:
The Problem of Evil: Crash Course Philosophy #13
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This is not the true problem of evil at all, it is a watered down version you can refute.

The real problem of evil is as follows. If god is all knowing, and can know the future, then the future is predetermined. If the future is predetermined then we have no real ability to perform moral actions, right or wrong (free will). Therefore we are potentially predetermined to eternal torture, and life has no meaning. If we do have free will, a god could not possibly be all knowing.

Of course, even the idea of a creator god is not worthwhile. If the universe is too complicated to come into existence by itself, it must instead have been made by something of similar complexity... then how was that god made? If that god can have always existed why not the universe, etc etc.

18
Sep 8, 2017
Carbon 12, can you offer any scientific paper, cut and paste mathematical proof link or the like that proves your suppositions regarding "if the future is predetermined, then we have no free will"?

And regarding the universe coming into existence by itself, I think the big objection is the complexity of it, given it's "observed" age of 18 billion years or so, rather than it's mere existence.

4
Sep 10, 2017
It is kind of the definition of predeterminism and free will, they are by definition mutually exclusive:
"Predeterminism is the idea that all events are determined in advance. Predeterminism is the philosophy that all events of history, past, present and future, have been already decided or are already known (by God, fate, or some other force), including human actions.
In the case of predeterminism, this chain of events has been pre-established, and human actions cannot interfere with the outcomes of this pre-established chain."
"Free Will: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"
Feel free to ask any more questions, but feel free to explain what you believe these terms to mean if you think differently. But to me, you are asking me to prove A =/= notA.
2
Sep 14, 2017
Carbon 12 said:
It is kind of the definition of predeterminism and free will, they are by definition mutually exclusive:
"Predeterminism is the idea that all events are determined in advance. Predeterminism is the philosophy that all events of history, past, present and future, have been already decided or are already known (by God, fate, or some other force), including human actions.
In the case of predeterminism, this chain of events has been pre-established, and human actions cannot interfere with the outcomes of this pre-established chain."
"Free Will: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"
Feel free to ask any more questions, but feel free to explain what you believe these terms to mean if you think differently. But to me, you are asking me to prove A =/= notA.
Did it ever occur to anyone that God may not live in the same plane of existence? If he's all knowing of everything past present and future, then he must be a 4 dimensional being. He can k ow everything and see the timelines That we gave up or took as a consequences of our choices. What you said doesn't mean we don't have free will or that there is no God, it just means you are thinking to disprove rather than to explain.
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Sep 16, 2017
You did not just assume God was created.... please, that's such a beginner's fallacy to ask. Anyone would tell you the answer to that question is that God is UNcreated, eternal.
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Sep 17, 2017
DoomRater said:
You did not just assume God was created.... please, that's such a beginner's fallacy to ask. Anyone would tell you the answer to that question is that God is UNcreated, eternal.
doesn't make that answer correct though does it?
0
Sep 17, 2017
Michael Tilley said:
doesn't make that answer correct though does it?
The infinite regression paradox is NOT an answer; someone who suggests it as a problem when there is a better answer either is ignorant of the question or is trolling.
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Sep 17, 2017
LOL DUDE said:
Did it ever occur to anyone that God may not live in the same plane of existence? If he's all knowing of everything past present and future, then he must be a 4 dimensional being. He can k ow everything and see the timelines That we gave up or took as a consequences of our choices. What you said doesn't mean we don't have free will or that there is no God, it just means you are thinking to disprove rather than to explain.
LOL DUDE no. What this shows is that the terms omnipotence and free will completely contradict each other, these are terms put forth by theists without actually understanding the gravity of such claims. Does god have the ability to take my free will from me? Now I didn't say does he choose not to, but the ability to do so. If he *can't* then he's not omnipotent, if he does, then I'm afraid it's not free will and we are merely subjected to his devine plan and can't be held responsible for our actions because god designed it to be so. This should be an easy one for theists since they know everything about god, but I'm sure I'll be treated to some breath taking mental gymnastics.
5
Sep 19, 2017
See the only issue with your statement there is the fact that being able to see the future does not mean the future is predetermined, for instance a time traveller is in the future, say he comes back to our time and changes something, he will have a different future (if any) to return to, it is similar with God, he sees the end goal and knows (because he is omniscient) that this is the only path to get to the end goal, which will end up being the perfect goal for us.
0
Sep 19, 2017
Pic_boss91 said:
See the only issue with your statement there is the fact that being able to see the future does not mean the future is predetermined, for instance a time traveller is in the future, say he comes back to our time and changes something, he will have a different future (if any) to return to, it is similar with God, he sees the end goal and knows (because he is omniscient) that this is the only path to get to the end goal, which will end up being the perfect goal for us.
so then why say that god is omnipotent? Seriously why? Since not a single theist can accept the consequences that comes with making a statement like that. Stop making watered-down assumptions for nonsensical claims. God is either omnipotent and you need to accept everything that comes with that claim. Or God isn't and the principles of your faith are redundant. You can't have it both ways.
2
Sep 20, 2017
Are you saying God can't be all-knowing without intervening? For example, God knows someone out there will murder another person today. That is a sin, and therefore it upsets Him, but he doesn't intervene because that would take away our free will. He knows the choices you will make, but I'm curious where the assumption came from that he forced you into making those choices?
0
Sep 20, 2017
Because according to people like Michael, doing a Genocide run in Undertale is the same thing as actually committing genocide. You simulated it, that means you actually did it.
0
Sep 20, 2017
Elite Lens Films said:
Are you saying God can't be all-knowing without intervening? For example, God knows someone out there will murder another person today. That is a sin, and therefore it upsets Him, but he doesn't intervene because that would take away our free will. He knows the choices you will make, but I'm curious where the assumption came from that he forced you into making those choices?
are you saying you don't understand the definition of omnipotence?. Why would god intervene on something that is already planned? He knows the future, but the future is undetermined? Seriously? Wow. If you can't see how ridiculous a statement like that is then there's no point to this.
0
Sep 27, 2017
Michael Tilley said:
are you saying you don't understand the definition of omnipotence?. Why would god intervene on something that is already planned? He knows the future, but the future is undetermined? Seriously? Wow. If you can't see how ridiculous a statement like that is then there's no point to this.
Lol😂😂😂
0
Sep 27, 2017
Another thread that's kinda active. I just wanted to say; we don't know if there's such a thing as "the future". We conjure an idea of it based on predictable models, but we cannot say those models are unfailing, only that their tendency for failure is unknown if it hasn't failed yet. The future is a useful concept to believe in, but is not necessarily a thing that exists.

Ergo, there's no reason to believe that an omniscient being would know any more about the future than it would about unicorns (or the omniscient being itself, if you wanna be cheeky about it). Free will can exist (EDIT: if such a being exists) because "predictable" may be an imaginary concept that happens to make sense.

1
Sep 27, 2017
Omz Homz said:
Carbon 12, can you offer any scientific paper, cut and paste mathematical proof link or the like that proves your suppositions regarding "if the future is predetermined, then we have no free will"?

And regarding the universe coming into existence by itself, I think the big objection is the complexity of it, given it's "observed" age of 18 billion years or so, rather than it's mere existence.

A scientific paper for philosophy? Maybe read what the word "science" means. If a god created a person and his motivations, and the conditions around this person while knowing the exact outcome of it, he isn't able to alter his decision, or that god wouldn't be able to know it when creating the person.

For the second part, he already refuted that argument, why just present the same argument? It makes no sense. If complex things aren't able to create themselves, but need an even complexer cause (god), than the exact same is true for that cause (god). So if our universe needs a creator because it is "complex", than that god also needs a creator according to that exact same standard and logic.

1
Sep 30, 2017
i can understand you, but God knowing the evil and us having free will is no paradhox at all. Everything that will happen is already happening, You can even take God out of the discussion and the argument still doesn't make sense at all.
0
Sep 30, 2017
Exactly my thoughts
0
Oct 1, 2017
But... you know that future doesn't exist, right?
0
Oct 2, 2017
Carbon 12... You mention "Predeterminism is the philosophy..." ok great.

Again, I ask from a scientific perspective, can you offer any scientific paper, cut and paste mathematical proof link or the like that proves your suppositions regarding "if the future is predetermined, then we have no free will"?

If not, then it looks like you are merely offering us a supposition as a proof.

0
Oct 2, 2017
Carbon 12 said:
It is kind of the definition of predeterminism and free will, they are by definition mutually exclusive:
"Predeterminism is the idea that all events are determined in advance. Predeterminism is the philosophy that all events of history, past, present and future, have been already decided or are already known (by God, fate, or some other force), including human actions.
In the case of predeterminism, this chain of events has been pre-established, and human actions cannot interfere with the outcomes of this pre-established chain."
"Free Will: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"
Feel free to ask any more questions, but feel free to explain what you believe these terms to mean if you think differently. But to me, you are asking me to prove A =/= notA.
- The creation has a Creator
0
Oct 4, 2017
Carbon 12 said:
It is kind of the definition of predeterminism and free will, they are by definition mutually exclusive:
"Predeterminism is the idea that all events are determined in advance. Predeterminism is the philosophy that all events of history, past, present and future, have been already decided or are already known (by God, fate, or some other force), including human actions.
In the case of predeterminism, this chain of events has been pre-established, and human actions cannot interfere with the outcomes of this pre-established chain."
"Free Will: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"
Feel free to ask any more questions, but feel free to explain what you believe these terms to mean if you think differently. But to me, you are asking me to prove A =/= notA.
God is not all knowing. Only thing that God knows from the future is his word. God doesn't know what will happen during an interval of time. Only what he promises to do at some point in that interval. e.g. In year 2059 the first sign of Armageddon, yada, yada. He knows that will happen in the future because it is his word. But he doesn't know what will happen before the time gets there because we have free will.
0
Oct 4, 2017
Irving Alvarez said:
God is not all knowing. Only thing that God knows from the future is his word. God doesn't know what will happen during an interval of time. Only what he promises to do at some point in that interval. e.g. In year 2059 the first sign of Armageddon, yada, yada. He knows that will happen in the future because it is his word. But he doesn't know what will happen before the time gets there because we have free will.
- Which God is this? Of which religion I mean?
0
Oct 7, 2017
DoomRater said:
Because according to people like Michael, doing a Genocide run in Undertale is the same thing as actually committing genocide. You simulated it, that means you actually did it.
Oh man you’re either a decent troll or an idiot
0
Oct 9, 2017
Your argument is equivalent to saying "Do you have any scientific paper yadda yadda to prove that if something is A, then it isn't not A?" It's a matter of mutually exclusive definitions.

If this universe was created by a truly omniscient god - meaning it would know everything that will ever happen, ever - then that means all the events that will happen were set in motion by the god when it created the universe. To use Christian terms, this god would know how and be able to create a universe where everyone goes to heaven, a universe where everyone goes to hell, or anything in between, and would know before creating this universe which one it was creating. The same goes for concepts like "universe where no one or everyone is murdered, universe where no one or everyone dies of disease", etc.

That means literally everything that happens is simply the result of puppets acting out a script god decided on at the moment of the universe's creation. No one is responsible for any good or evil but god, since only god had any agency in the matter.

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